The Existence Of God

[icEPiraka]

@ Rogue: We may look different than other organisms, thats true. But we are very similar to chimps, because 95% of our active genes resemble that of chimps (and don't tell me that you don't see physical resemblance). And why you don't see crocodiles at the store is because they are well adapted to their current environment and haven't the need to evolve, or any evolutionary variations to the croc's genes have led to that croc being unable to find a niche where that gene can be used, so it cannot eat, reproduce, etc.

And why exactly do we need God in our universe? What's his purpose? I simply cannot see it.

[Rogue]

The 5% difference is a biggun'. Neanderthals and monkeys were and are well adapted to their surroundings also. Why the drastic change in one species and not another?

I can't explain your question with fact Ice. To me God gives meaning to life. It makes it all worthwhile.

It's been discussed that no God gives even more meaning. I disagree. We must live our lives to the fullest so others can enjoy their lives? Why? They'll be dead too and makes what we do now irrelevant. Who cares if we blow up or spoil the Earth tomorrow, it doesn't matter. We've all the same fate of nothingness and gives absolutely no meaning to life. Why rear your children, just kill them now. Without God there are no consequences, no benefits and no meaning. Who cares if my kids live to 120. It doesn't mean squat.

Again, a meteor hits the Earth. The Earth is gone. Nothing is left. There was no point in our existence. This is kind of tough to explain over the internet but I'm trying.

If life means nothing in the end then why is there anything at all to begin with? People talk about how the universe was created by gaseous explosions and the like. OK. What created this gas? What did anything originate from? I'm speaking of the most basic of elements. Why? Why is it here and how did it originate. This is something that science will never be able to explain. We know how to combine different gases to create another gas or mix metals to create stronger metal. However, nobody can explain how the first "anything" was created. Science would knock my questions as silly because it simply can never be answered. Any answer science gives me I can immediately ask another question they cannot be answered.

I believe there's a reason we exist and it goes farther than just some cells, an explosion and science.

[icEPiraka]

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that there are other species of extinct human that fill that 5% gap.

Sometimes there are things that science can't explain. But just giving up and saying that God did it all is just too anthropic way of looking at life, and is improper logic. Science is based on predictions backed up by mathematical and observational proof. There is no mathematics or observations we can make of God, which means we cannot prove or disprove his existence, so believing in God is not logical.

So what if God does exist and he made everything. What made him? What made the God maker? What made the God maker maker? Let's just save ourselves a step and say that God always existed? Or we can save the next step and say that the universe (or multiverse, which I believe in) always existed, without the need of creator.

Science will never stop trying to find the right answers. The next step is to find a quantum theory of gravity that matches our universe. Then we will reveal the events about the Big Bang, and then maybe go on to find indirect traces of other universes, or of a multiverse, and maybe find a mechanism of the relationships of these other universes. As long as we use our proper methods of logic and proof, we will succeed. There may not be a point to it all, but it exists, and we need to understand it.

And I have a fun question for you. If there are other civilizations in this universe (which is in high probability, because we're here, aren't we?), did Jesus "visit" them? If he did, why do we consider his arrival here so unique when it's ordinary for him to bring "salvation" to other civilizations? If he didn't visit other civilizations, why would he not give the other civs the chance of "salvation?" Why would he do that? Why would God do that? Why would we think of us so unique and not others?

[Rogue]

You go from what you perceive as fact to "what ifs" and arrive at the same "I don't knows" that I have. You then imply that at some point we'll figure it out which is another what if.

If you're gonna demand facts from me then I must do in kind. What if there are other civilizations is not a suitable response denouncing the existence of a God. You're using the unknown to denounce the unknown. This is more naive than I'm being to be blunt.

Why are you ignoring my evolution of man question? Again, we simply have not been around long enough to know or comprehend much at alll. Our minds in comparison to other animals on this planet are of course incredibly powerful yet we've been around for less than one thousandth of the time as other organisms.

That's one thing that really bugs me. People assuming we'll find the answers at some point. One trip to the moon geniuses does not makes. I find it arrogant considering we're only kids in a candy store. It's puzzling to me that somebody who knows how far we've come in such a short period of time finds it illogical that a supreme spirit may exist. Is it more logical to "Beam me up Scotty?" I think because of the monetary system and billions being a common financial number that people overlook just how long that is in years.

You seem to be avoiding the longevity of our current stay here on Earth. Billions of years versus a few thousand. Yet, you appear to have supreme confidence in what we know.

The difference between me and you is that I question my faith. You appear to not question your faith in man at all. If you're so impressed with something such as quantum physics that we're just exploring why are you not open to the idea that a spirit or whatever could have created the Earth? We flew to the moon in a few thousand years. Just think of the possibilities a being could have in a few billion years.

Just a tip about me. I'm not a straight follower of the Bible. In fact, in other threads such as this I've denounced my own religion and feel the people have got the message entirely wrong.

Heh, I just keep on writing. The Big Bang is a theory. Another theory. Quantum physics. In fact, it's a flippin' generalization of many theories as far as I know. I could be wrong because I wasn't tuned into Quantum Leap much. You really gotta do better than that.



Bah, hard to type, my kid is sitting with me. More later.


EDIT: What a mess I typed. Heh. I'll clean it up later. My little dude was listening to tunes playing on my computer while sitting with me.

Here's where we are in this debate: Faith vs. Theory. Saying that one is more believable than the other is the only thing here that is illogical.

[icEPiraka]

We are actually hot on the trail to having all the answers. There are tons of theories of quantum gravity, we just need to determine which one is right for our universe.

I'm not using the existence of others civilizations to try to denounce God, I'm testing your faith to see how God really thinks.

You say that we haven't been around enough to understand much. On the contrary, quantum gravity is a theory that unifies everything about the universe. Everything. A lot of preexisting knowledge about the universe is needed before that can be accomplished. Believe me, read any good physics book and you'll see how much understanding goes on in science. Our minds may be more advanced than other organisms, but there are tons of similarities that suggest that we evolved from them. Shall I list?

1. Homologous Structures: Even though the bodily appearances and functions of different species may vary, the same basic structure of bones of vertebrates is the same.

2. Reproduction: Humans and mammals have the same basic form of reproduction.

3. Vestigial structures: These structures are useless body parts that suggest that animals evolved from one another (examples: stumpy leftover bones of hind legs in whales, leftovers of tail in crabs, hollow bones in dodos, tailbones and wisdom teeth in humans). Also, there are vestigial behaviors in humans that suggest evolution. One example is goose bumps, a function that is a response to stress. In animals with fur, the goose bumps actually lift fur in mammals.

4. Molecular biology: All organisms have the same DNA, RNA, and proteins structures. The closer the similarity of species, the higher the similarities.

5. Paleontology: The existence of old bones show similar species changing over time, suggesting evolution. Also, transitional fossils show ties together between different species.

Just because we've come so far in a few years doesn't suggest that we were created by God. Things like this happen in evolution. It took billions for years for multicellular organisms to evolve, but when they did. great leaps in evolution of different species occurred (relatively quick, at least, it still took a few million years for new species to arise). When the fully upright hip evolved in dinosaurs, they became extremely successful in efficient locomotion across the globe (although they had a stroke of luck, since all the continents were unified). Evolution is slow, but when the right mutations occur, great leaps in successfulness of species can occur.

The reason I don't question my faith in how science works is because if there is something in science that I question, I can actually pursue, observe, research, and make good judgments so i can prove or disprove a statement. It's an excellent system. When you say that God exists, it is something I cannot prove or disprove. I cannot observe or research anything factual about it, so I cannot make a valid decision about if he exists or not. That's the thing about science. It actually tries to use valid observations to prove or disprove something. If you believe in God, you are just taking the slacker's way out on understanding. But some of you believers would say that God tricked us to putting those things there for us to observe just to "test our faith." But why would God do that if he knew that we would all know in his existence?

[stinkfingers]

rogue...
doesn't appear that you've even paused to consider what i wrote about nihilism...you keep going back to the god/nihilism dichotomy.

it almost seems that your fear of the absence of higher meaning is all it takes to keep you comfortably faithful.

good post ice p. again, denigrating science in favor of some unspecified Ideal (which is what rogue seems to be doing, as many others have as well) is another sign of this prevalence of the platonic-christian notion of the Ideal. it's quite easy to denounce science because it is relatively young, sometimes flawed, not infallible...etc etc...especially if one compares it to the infallible, perfect, absolute (and comfortable) idea one has of God. it is quite easy to denounce science because it is merely a human activity. it isn't divine, perfect, godly.

[NUTS!]

yet its easy to denounce God because you can't touch, feel or quantify it.

Sometimes using the battering ram that God placed on your shoulder is good enough. Are you truly afraid of of excepting God because of fear? Not for what you have done but that it makes your beliefs, hence you invalid. Have you truly looked, have you truly used the battering ram?

Using science to say God doesn't exist, is like using the bible that he does. What are the thoughts that truly make you that he does not exist? This is an argument that can go back in forth for a long time with no real clear winner. One side may find a better website/quote/etc in one post then switch.

If you truly want to discuss religion, let it all hang out. Why are you afraid of believing in God?

[Rogue]

It's not fear Stink. Also, what's wrong with comfort?

Stink I'm supposed to be offered fact. I'm not denigrating science at all. I'm simply saying I don't believe we know much at all. You've simply used your perception of things and stated them as mine.

Ice's post is an insult to my intelligence and nothing more. It's virtual finger wagging. Not one piece of that post offers one bit of knowledge that I don't already posess. The rest is based on an assumption. Thanks but no thanks. I already own that shirt and don't need one in blue.

This is no surprise since it appears habitual for the science community to assume that those of faith are incapable of thought.

In regards to evolution, let's be honest, there's only be one great leap and specialization or need for the others.

[stinkfingers]

Nut(sac)s!
hmmm...
for me it's not a question of being afraid of God. It's a question of not accepting the existence of God based on faith. my mind doesn't work like that, and science never asks you to accept something w/o evidence.

but i think you are right...science can't be used to disprove God. in fact, nothing can...because it is logically impossible to disprove a negative concept. God isn't alone here either. neither can you disprove the existence of the chupa cabra, santa claus, the easter bunny and the flying spaghetti monster. i don't mean to trivialize the notion of God by comparing him to these other silly entities, but he does occupy the same logical continuum.

for people who, as you say, rely on empirical evidence and not on faith, seeking explanations through science and not through the bible is an aspect of their internal consistency i think...not a sign of fear. personally, i'd love it if God's existence were proven beyond a doubt. there is much more comfort for me in that concept than in the concept of a universe devoid of ultimate meaning. but no part of me is able to accept that idea on faith...or through the authority of ontological tales created by folks who lived 3 millenia before me.

for those of you inculcated in religious tradition from an early age, belief and faith would come quite natural to you. you are steeped in the culture of religion...mysteries, miracles, morals, fantastic stories and all that that explain all things away and calm hearts. most importantly, your worlds have been put in order very early on by one unifying framework.

but your inculcation in that framework is entirely arbitrary. had you been born elsewhere, you would have been steeped in another religious tradition which of course would feel as natural and as perfect to you as you presently feel about christianity.

apart from my inability to accept something on faith, i am also unable to privilege one religion over another, which is what you all do...and what i'd have to do to accept God. the arbitrariness, and the vast number of religions make it illogical for me to accept any one of them as superior to all others, and the true religion.

in the end, it doesn't matter what i believe or what you believe. i doubt very much our beliefs are going to change our fate.

[stinkfingers]

rogue...then not denigrating. how bout devaluing? :)

you asked ice for some evidence, did you not? and he provided some, did he not? but perhaps his evidence is unconvincing because it is mostly theoretical? you say you are already in possession of the info he gave you. you remain unmoved. one assumes....

that science doesn't presently offer evidence that meets your standard of proof yet.

therefore, one would be a moron to NOT assume....by way of comparison...that you don't hold your religious beliefs to the same standard. from science you are demanding a higher level of empirical certainty than many non-religious folks (like me)...at the same time you do not subject your religion to any sort of scrutiny at all.

next.

nothing wrong with comforting thoughts in my book, if you are able to have them. but since i am unable to have them, i feel resentful and start trying to erode yours.