Are power "ups" really power "downs"?

[Cog3125]

In advance: I know this gets a little long and rambling, but there's a lot of background thinking that went into the question at the end, so if this just seems too bogged down and rambling, either bear with me or feel free to ignore me. Whatever. Works for me

I'm developing an experimental power ups package I call "pups_plus." I wanted to make sure my power ups were "game balanced", so I decided to do some analysis of the existing tanks/weapons so I could see how my own two weapon power ups stacked up (the rest of pups_plus are "non-weapon" stuff like power up caching, different rotation methods, timed power ups, info power ups, etc, so this discussion only mentions two of about a dozen features of my own package).

Now, supposedly, the heavier tanks lose speed, fire rate, and maneuverability in return for natural toughness and hitting power. But the math doesn't fully support this: You could just look at the damager-per-shot of various projectiles, but I think this is a poor guide to the overall hitting power of a tank.

Others may have a different opinion, but to me, hitting power is best measured by something I'll call DPB (Damage Per Burst). Every projectile has a burst rate that determines how many shots fire each time you hold down the firing button. Damage-Per-Burst is how much total damage you could inflict, assuming every shot in your burst hit the intended target. Obviously whether they do or not is a combination of skill, circumstances, and lag. But the point is, DPB is the best hitting power you could wring out of a given projectile.

Now, to show the math for this, I'll use the following abbreviations. (This would look nicer if I could do a table, but I not sure how to reliably make columns line up in a forum post, since the font is unproportioned, so bear with me please). Damage Per Shot (DPS), Burst Size (BS), Damage Per Burst (DPB), Clip Size (CS) and Bursts Per Clip (BPC)

Light Projectile : DPS 0.87 x BS 8 = DPB 6.96, CS 220 / BPC 27.5
Medium Projectile: DPS 1.00 x BS 5 = DPB 5.00, CS 145 / BPC 29.0
Heavy Projectile : DPS 1.40 x BS 3 = DPB 4.20, CS 180 / BPC 60.0

OK, so are heavy tanks really that powerful after all? Yes, each shot does 1.40 points of damage (160.9% of a light shell), but with a burst rate of only 3, the DPB is only 4.20, which is actually 60.3% of the damage a light could inflict. There is some comfort to be had in that the number of bursts that can be launched before reloading is more by far than a light can manage, but if you die before you can use all that potential, it's small comfort.

And if you consider that the DPB of a light is very nearly 7, a full-health heavy could be picked off in just over three bursts, assuming a skillful light tank player and some good luck, whereas another heavy would take five bursts to do the same. This seems like it should be a problem, but... well, to get back to the point of this post:

Should you go for power ups? My experience intuitively says no, but previously, I didn't have any math to back it up. Now, let's look at what power ups do (*ahem*) "for" you...

Speedy : DPS 1.0 x BS 5 = DPB 5.0, CS 35 / BPC 7.0
Bounce back : DPS 1.0 x BS 4 = DPB 4.0, CS 45 / BPC 11.25
Area Effect: DPS 3.0 x DS 1 = DPB 3.0, CS 10 / BPC 10.0

OK, now, I'll grant you, some of the power ups have "intangible" benefits. For instance, with an Area Effect, your aim doesn't need to be as precise, and with Bounce back, you can lob shots over a hilltop without poking your tank's chassis over the horizon line. But in terms of raw DPB hitting power, every power "up" across the board weakens you. The only tank that gains from any power up is the heavy tank, picking up a speedy power up. (So you're odds are 1 in 3 of a favorable outcome there).

Here for comparison are the two weapon power ups I'm developing:
"Double Damage" : 1.74 DPS x BS 5 = DPB 8.7, CS 35 / BPC 7.0
"Grenade" (aka "RPG") : 7.0 DPS x BS 1 = DPB 7.0, CS 12 / BPC 12.0

Double Damage has exactly twice the damage of a light projectile, coupled with the fire rate of a medium projectile. The fact that it scatters that damage over several shots means you need some degree of skill and luck to max out the usefulness of the weapon. The RPG has has a single-bounce, slow moving, heavily arching trajectory that can be tricky to learn to aim, but does massive damage if you do in fact hit. Note that when you take DPB into account, both of these are clearly a true power "up" for every class of tank.

*************************************
And after that, the question is....

Does anyone else think that tanks and/or power ups need a little "re-balancing" for level gameplay? Or is everybody pretty happy with the "classic" power ups and tanks just as they are? I could probably make this re-balance an optional switch in pups_plus, but would anyone really want it to change?

[TMG Leader]

hell I think the tanks and pups need a lot of rebalancing in my opinion

[Scyth]

Your math is NOT correct, you only count how much 1 burst can hit. Not the probability.. The heavy needs to plant 2 bursts of 3 bullets in a light to pop the brain. The light must hit the heavy at least 4 times with 7 bullets.

The PU's aren't (only) made for their damage. Speedy is made for sniping, bounce is made for shooting over edges and area is to hit multiple tanks. You neglect this and all you want is increase its damage. I think you do not see the power of the power UPS correctly.

[MusickTMG]

I think that the ornigal Tanks (ones that came with the game) are good when unedited. but if you want to edit a tank just make a new one. I think that it is more efficant than editing your current one. Same goes with the powerups

[Cog3125]

Your math is NOT correct, you only count how much 1 burst can hit. Not the probability.. The heavy needs to plant 2 bursts of 3 bullets in a light to pop the brain. The light must hit the heavy at least 4 times with 7 bullets.

"My" math comes out of the original special.cs and tankDB.cs files. Unless you are testing in target practice (the targets use different health strengths), or else using modded tanks, 2 bursts of 3 heavy bullets don't kill a light, and the heavy only takes 1 bullet more than the third burst from a light. I went to the script files for this because it's very hard to tell during live game play, since you don't always know for certain how many shots "really" hit, or whether a tank was already slightly damaged when you showed up.

All of which is beside the point: you can't compare burst strength by giving the heavy tank a far easier job than the light. My example compared a heavy to a light assuming both were trying to kill a heavy tank.

As for probability of hitting: yes, as I said originally, this comes down to a combination of skill, circumstances, and lag. But if you want to bring probability into it, then you also have to start comparing speed and maneuverability as well, b/c the heavy is harder to evade with, and therefore more likely to be hit with full bursts. I left that out at first because all I was trying to compare was hitting strength.

The PU's aren't (only) made for their damage.

Heh heh. My point is: the power ups don't appear to be made AT ALL for their damage.

Speedy is made for sniping, bounce is made for shooting over edges and area is to hit multiple tanks. You neglect this and all you want is increase its damage. I think you do not see the power of the power UPS correctly.

OK. This I can accept, and that's why I'm asking for opinions. However I did not neglect this at all: as I also said originally, I concede that each power up has "intangible" benefits (meaning ones that go beyond the raw math). But I did question whether these benefits justified dropping the damage potential so much in return for them. I suspected some people will say "I'd like to see more power", and others will say, "With the right skills, you don't need raw power." If nothing else, I'm curious to see how many are in each camp, so, thanks for the reply.

[Scyth]

The PU's aren't (only) made for their damage.

Heh heh. My point is: the power ups don't appear to be made AT ALL for their damage.

You shouldn't have taken it out of its content, I know the powerups are weak but their strenght lies in their "different" abilities.

As for probability of hitting: yes, as I said originally, this comes down to a combination of skill, circumstances, and lag. But if you want to bring probability into it, then you also have to start comparing speed and maneuverability as well, b/c the heavy is harder to evade with, and therefore more likely to be hit with full bursts. I left that out at first because all I was trying to compare was hitting strength.

You forget here the speed with which a bullet goes, I haven't checked the files but as I remember Heavy bullets go faster then Light bullets which increases, according to me, the probability to hit. Heavies are mostly sniping machines, you might want to try to take one out with your light.

-------

Im with the second group, get good skill with the normal Bullets, I get annoyed by the massive use of PU's by what I call PUNs (Power Up Noobs).

Nice talkin' to you.

[PLAYER36-SA-]

Interesting, no wonder I always thought powerups were worthless. I do think the tanks are pretty well-balanced though, since the heavier tanks have less DPB and overall speed but more armor and bullet speed.

[Cog3125]

Hmm... interesting. Thanks, Scyth and Player 36-sa- for pointing out about the connection between shot speed and hit probability. Honestly, I hadn't fully considered the effect this has.

Oh, and Scyth, yes, you do remember correctly: according to special.cs, the heavy tank has a projectile speed 55.8% faster than the light (and the speedy is another 58% faster than the heavy). It makes sense, now that I think of it: evasion ability counts for less if you have less reaction time.

To check it out further, I've been playing a heavy in Quickplay mode (where both lag and human opponents don't factor into it) and with only a little practice was able to start pulling 30 point sessions against the bots (somewhat less than I'm used to with a light tank, but I haven't really worked with it much yet).

Apparently, it just requires a different mind set to play the heavy, but both ends of the spectrum do appear to work if you know what the tank is good for. I need to ponder how this impacts my own power ups for game balance purposes. Thanks. This is the best kind of feedback I could have hoped for.