The Future of TT from GG!

[Napalm]

No so sure here. I mean come on, I've tried it on 2 PC's with nothing out of the ordinary and a brand new Mac with Two browsers.

I need to try a 5th combination? Where's the help?

Bah, I'm tired of this. If the game is this much trouble and I can't even get into it to see if it's decent, what's it going to be like trying to get mods and other content to work?
Not looking so good from this end.

I think all that talk about we're going to do this and that, is just a bunch of crap. We've waited here for 5 years for some fixes and who provided them? Not the programmers from Bravetree, it was the community. The people here. If not for the people here and their dedication, this game would have dropped to the bottom of the ocean 3 years ago. I have no confidence that there will be anything added to make the IA version better, or even close to a fat client like we have now. I'm just going by what I've seen, (you know, the track record.) Especially if your trying to attract a customer base and this is what you're going to entice them with? You may as well dangle a turd from a string and ask people to pay for it.

[Rogue]

Let me be a little more clear in my point.

I work in an entirely client-based field. My clients tell me I suck, in so many words, every single day. No matter how late I work and no matter how perfect I can be, to many of my clients I suck. Unlike Joe, I don't get offended, I do what is needed to appease my client.

Flipping recognize that your client-base, no matter how small, is the only reason you have a job. Pain in the butt clients are the best clients. Why? Because in the end you matter.

I've tried other GG games and to me, personally, they suck. In fact, I think you got lucky with TT and that a game this small, in terms of people, has lasted this long. I could go on and on but I won't because I owe, we owe, Joe and GG nothing. We're the client and perfectly in our right to say, "Dance monkey, dance."

I like this game, it' a lot of fun. However, let's be honest, there's no loyalty coming from anywhere for your product. You have no brand recognition and defending a product that your small clientele perceives as inept won't help matters.

"I've stayed out of this community," and I paraphrase. As if we're a small part of the GG clientele. We're big fish in your small pond. Recognize...

[joemaruschak]

You are the client, you are perfectly within your right to nice person about a product. Joe is completely out of order by insinuating that you don't have the right to "flame" him and his company.

I never stated that no one had the right to flame.. go for it if you want to. Pai asked me to comment.. I did. I can comment more, or I can just go back to work and not visit here anymore. It actually does not matter to me if people want to flame and insult, I just have better things to do with my time. Re-read what I wrote. I restated that if people wanted to continue to insult us, they can go for it.. it is not going to change anything.

our clients have spoken, your IA product sucks according to them. They are perfectly within their right to degrade a product they see as subpar and have no interest in "It's just a beta." retorts. Explanations do not equal dollars. In fact, the more you have to explain the less effective your product is and will ever be. It's like a joke where you have to explain the punchline. Face it, those jokes aren't funny.

I'm actually embarrassed to have to even type this post.

Is "Thanks Joe," "We don't mean to be insulting Joe," the kind of remarks you want? Get your balls reattached and join the business crowd. They bought your game, they owe you nothing.

get a grip. I have stated several times in this thread.. if you want to reject instantaction, that is your choice as a consumer. I am not going to force it on anyone. We will be judged by the market, and I am willing to face it if we fail. Regardless, this is where we are going right now.

If you want to be a part of it, then you can have a voice in shaping it. If not, then you can stay here and play TT. Go ahead and degrade it, I honestly am not that concerned. I am not offended.. saddened mostly. We are finally able to build what we have been wanting to build, and make available all the features that everyone has been asking for.. and it just saddens me.

as for the reattaching the balls thing.. dude.. fine. We got your money, you got a game. I don't owe you guys anything either, and I am not asking for anything from you now. Some here asked me to comment and give an explanation, which I have done. You can choose to ignore it.

I don't have to join the business crowd.. I am in it. I am realistic and objective, and strive to be rational. To put a fine point on it.. I have a responsibility to the company to follow the money, and honestly, it is not here with you guys. You can insult me and call me stupid, but I got to where I am by not making stupid or emotional decisions, and all this anger is certainly not going to change anything.

I think you got lucky with TT and that a game this small, in terms of people, has lasted this long.

It lasted way longer than we ever expected. I don't understand the lucky part.. we did not plan on having people still playing this for so long. We thought everyone would have moved on by now, and our approach to selling the game and our approach to distribution did not take this sort of longevity into account. The 'luck' of it lasting as long as it has really did not do anything super for us.. the main income from the sale of the game happened within the first year, and since then it has been a slow and steady trickle.

We're the client and perfectly in our right to say, "Dance monkey, dance."

you are in your right to say whatever you please. I can choose to ignore it or listen to it. You can say dance.. at this point I choose not to dance. I think most everyone here got their $20 worth.. if you don't think you did, then all I can say is that I am sorry that you feel that we ripped you off.

Flipping recognize that your client-base, no matter how small, is the only reason you have a job. Pain in the butt clients are the best clients. Why? Because in the end you matter.

whatever.. the reason I have a job is that I like what I am doing and I choose to work. the only reason I have a job? I recognize that you guys bought a game that I had a hand in making. In a service based industry, 'clients' matter.. entertainment software is not a client based business model. The reason I have a job is that I help make products that people buy. If you don't want to buy anything I had a hand in making, then don't. The market will judge me. If I screw up, I will take my lumps and move on..

GG's getting a lot of the TT community (including myself) very frustrated over all this anticipation, let downs, and conflict of interests... and it's more apparent to me now it isn't because of a poor company (I take back half the bad things I've said) it's because of a poor business model which is in a state of flux.

the games industry is somewhere in the midst of a business model switch that tanked the recording industry.. we are trying to get out ahead of it. Having worked in the bigger games industry (a very broken industry) and the the smaller casual/indie industry (not as broken but still limited by the distribution business model), I like where we are attempting to go. We may not get it right. If we don't, then we will adapt and try something else. I hope we get it right.

So, again, TT, at least for the short term, is going to be on instant action. In the future, who knows.. but for now, this is where it will be and where we will focus our efforts. If the game gets no following and no community growing around it, it will die there. If it does, it will grow there. I am ok with either outcome. I would like it to grow.. but it is not going to bother me if it does not. There are other games (Legions, RokkitBall, etc.. ) that came out of the Studio that I now oversee, and if those get legs, we will support those.

If you have an interest in seeing TT grow, it would be in your interest to support the instant action version. If you are ok with what you have here, that is cool and that will work. again, I am not going to twist arms here.. I came here as a favor to give some insight.. and it is obvious that it worked for some and not for others.

as for the 'biz' commentary.. again, the market will judge us, and if you don't like where it is going, then don't go there. Not going there means it is less likely that you will have say in the evolution of any community that might grow over there.

I like this game, it' a lot of fun. However, let's be honest, there's no loyalty coming from anywhere for your product. You have no brand recognition and defending a product that your small clientele perceives as inept won't help matters.

"I've stayed out of this community," and I paraphrase. As if we're a small part of the GG clientele. We're big fish in your small pond. Recognize...

umm.. ok then. if this is what you think, then that is cool.. I will leave it at that. I will leave you big fish now to swimming. I have work I need to tend to. If you don't want to come to instantaction, then that is cool. Please don't ask me about ThinkTanks anymore.

[CB]

I'm locking this down. This thread can only huts our version of the game from the direction its going.

[Cannon-Dale J]

^ You are missing a point CB. TT1 is OK for you & those who ping 60 or less in a Dash server. For everyone else, with no other servers & the ommission of Roos server no-one else can be competitive. Have you played the new TT & thne the old one? The new one has a lot going for it & the new one will be the future, whatever we do. Read what Joe is saying.

@ Rogue - Sry you are just plain wrong. If I have a small customer base I don't have to listen to them I would rather use the time to win the bigger market section. This is what Joe is saying, but he is giving us an olive branch which we are snapping. There are many business strategy types, loss leaders etc. To say they are lucky that we have played the game for 4 years is just daft.

Armies are dead, leagues is just about dead (except PSL which suits a minority)...

The new game is good. Anyone coming to TT1 & TT2 without our bias would prefer TT2. The only big problem I can see is lag & it's affect. Played a little more & lag seems to affect the reticle aim, weird. Everything else + more, Joe seems to have in hand...

Lets not cut off our nose to spite our face eh.

[dash]

I played the beta last night on a macbook pro using safari. You have to adjust the user agent string to make instant action
believe you're using safari 2.0 as it thinks 3.0 is old. This has to do with the way the browser detect is written. They'll fix
it soon I'm sure. It was a little unresponsive at times but I think for beta it is headed in a good direction.

This move to a subscription model and the recurring revenue stream that goes with it structures the business in a way that financially rewards catering to the existing customer base. The current business model just does not create any incentive for GG to do anything for us after the initial sale. It is definitely a move in the right direction business wise and for the customer.

I'm just not sure the technology underlying all this is going to be as good for fps'ish games or things where milliseconds matter.

[Rogue]

Cannon, where did I state the customer was right? Please...tell me?

I think you read my posts as if I were angry when in fact it's the exact opposite.

Let me explain, I open a restaurant, and I have 20 varieties of pasta dishes. My clients, though small in number, loves Dish 12. Why as a small business would I push my other 19 dishes? Personally, I'd find out why they love Dish 12 and build from there. I certainly wouldn't tell them I don't care what they think...

Let me repeat that "I" think they got lucky. As a consumer I tried some of their other games and based on that I believe they got lucky.

BTW, re-read my posts and take them from my position. The position that I don't give a flip if TT, GG or whatever succeeds when I wrote it. I could be talking about any company or product.

" don't owe you guys anything either, and I am not asking for anything from you now" Wasn't their a major announcement by a GG employee on this site regarding the release of IA? Now you don't need anything?

Here's what I get from the posts about IA in summation: This client base doesn't care for it and they'd like changes to fit their needs as a client. The business operation wants to grab a larger audience but doesn't have the man-power to perfect its product and provide sufficient customer service.

Am I wrong?

Dash is correct that the notion is a step in the right direction, for any business. However a notion, is just that.

Good luck Joe, I mean it. Here's one final thought for you. You are the business, you know your fan base and can predict how your games will sell. Your responsibility is to cater to your niche while perfecting your product. Then and only then is the bigger picture an option.

Please, somebody tell me I'm wrong.

Man, I'd love to be able to explain myself to an irritable and somewhat angry customer without having them go somewhere else with their business. I just don't see that working and truth be told, I need them even though I believe they're wrong.

[Cannon-Dale J]

That analogy is for different products for the same customer base, I think it's different. They have a new product suited to a different customer base. TT1 suits Cannon (old fart brought up on Ataris) TT2 suits Cannons kids (cool kids), most of whom are faddy, spend the money without thought & don't care much for the product, but hey ho, they spends their money & drop it after 6 months. If whoever developed WOW had given me (old fart) that as a Beta, I would have said what a load of old tosh. You yourself said this community is very small, we are a minority of sad old nutters...

I am assuming main driver on this is effort for money. New front (web based) front ends have been plugged onto TT scripting (don't flame me, I know nothing...).

The positive is that Joe is listening to feedback. Dash echoes the main issue perceived by this community, laaag. Untl IA has a master server which allows us to assess this & it's real affects the jury will be out as I see it. TBM is a joke, server host scores 10 & everyone else scores 0, that can't last. TS is approaching fun though. Also, as I said though, TT1 has this issue now. Gray is fine, living in Dash's garage, but Cannon (& say 60% is stuffed for TT1).

I don't see what some have against generating some positive critique to Joe on IA & committing to support IF we see the improvements which are key to us. The Linux thing has to be a red herring.

We are the group of people moist likely to be anti TT2, we fear change...

[Mighty Mouse]

I agree with Cannon. It's probably more appropriate to see how the younger crowd of PTT2 reacts to IA's business model. Their interest and stickiness is IA's main target. If they can somehow bring the rest of us along, icing on the cake it would seem.

Let's not jump to decry joe's business plan when we really don't know the constraints he is under. Ultimately we vote with our money and time. Insulting the guy on the site because we feel like this version is being abandoned or that he's too sensitive is non-productive.

As 44 once said, this was $20 well-spent. As for me, I'll be trying both versions for the time-being.

[joemaruschak]

Here's what I get from the posts about IA in summation: This client base doesn't care for it and they'd like changes to fit their needs as a client. The business operation wants to grab a larger audience but doesn't have the man-power to perfect its product and provide sufficient customer service.

Am I wrong?

Dash is correct that the notion is a step in the right direction, for any business. However a notion, is just that.

Good luck Joe, I mean it. Here's one final thought for you. You are the business, you know your fan base and can predict how your games will sell. Your responsibility is to cater to your niche while perfecting your product. Then and only then is the bigger picture an option.

Please, somebody tell me I'm wrong.

You are wrong. The 'product' of TT1 was 'perfected' to the point where it was a profitable venture as the first game out of a startup studio. It performed better than expected, and although it was not the 'ultimate' vision of what it could be, it did well for the scope of it. It exceeded our expectations, and the scope of additions that people have been asking for were not possible given the revenue generated from the game. We looked at it from multiple angles, and although there is opportunity there, it was not as great an opportunity as other things we had confronting us.

As part of Instant Action, it is performing it's role. At the moment, the worst case is that we have a comparison scenario in terms of adoption and conversion metrics that has a historical base.

As for the 'support' of ThinkTanks (the original).. there was no support 'contract' purchased with the game, and although some could imply that support is a function of marketing and PR, the cost of extended support is something we did factor into the cost of distribution.

In terms of our new products and intiatives, we can (and will try) to provide a quality of service and quality of experience that will be sufficient for those to choose to use the service. It is not where we want it to be yet.. we need to improve. The market will decide if we are doing enough. That works for me. If the level of service demanded by the community (or individual) exceeds the resources that we have to provide it, then it is a money losing proposition. We will attempt to get this right with InstantAction..

as to my responsibilites.. I am the General Manager of a game studio. I have a responsibility to those who work for me to make good decisions (so they can stay employed), and I have a responsibility to GarageGames (which purchased my company, BraveTree, in total) to make good development and business decisions. It could be implied that support of customers and that maintaining a user base would be inclusive of this responsibility, and in some ways it is, but it is a tertiary concern, and is inclusive only when that responsibility to the company is not in conflict with the responsibility to a certain product or user base for a single game.

In this case, I do know the audience, and can predict the numbers, and do all the things necessary to keep us making money so that we can keep doing what we like to do. I do feel some responsibility to let you guys know what is going on (which is why I am here).. but there is no obligation there. You paid for a version of the game. I think you got your moneys worth. We have a new version. It will either grab you or it won't. If it does not, then no big whoop..

so, you can have your view of what my responsibilities are, and you are welcome to hold that view. I personally have a very clear understanding of what my responsibilities to my company are, and it is clear that these responsibilities are not in alignment with what some here think should be my responsibilities. It is what it is.. you can have your POV that my priorities are mis-aligned, and you are free to hold that belief. At present, from my perspective, with what I am doing, I feel that my priorities are in proper order.

I am not asking for love, or forgiveness, or even understanding. I came here to inform (because I was asked to do so).. and I did so. Vote with your wallet.. if we get it wrong, then we will suffer for it.