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Tax the Rich!!!

Discuss anything.

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JJ
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Re: Tax the Rich!!!

Post by JJ »

Interesting how the left will call the right a bunch of douchebags for listening to Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck, then turn around and listen to Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews or the king of all douchebags Bill Maher.
+1

Check/skim this:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator/th ... ndle.thtml

Europe is getting ready to crack, all watch. Like the US will if we don't cut spending first. Best line from above link:

"The problem is that the BBC’s record is dreadful. It simply cannot be trusted not to become part of a partisan propaganda operation..."

There are no skeptics in American media.
stinkfingers
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Re: Tax the Rich!!!

Post by stinkfingers »

More stupidity than one can deal with all at once.

If you knew anything...any one damn thing about Germany post WWI, you would know that most of problems experienced by Germany in the 1920s were the results of crushing debt they assumed as a consequence of the treaty of Versailles. It doesn't matter what their economic philosophy was, there was no getting out from underneath the debt.
The burdensome reparations, coupled with a general inflationary period in Europe in the 1920s, caused spiraling hyperinflation of the German Reichsmark by 1923. This hyperinflationary period combined with the effects of the Great Depression (beginning in 1929) seriously to undermine the stability of the German economy, wiping out the personal savings of the middle class and spurring massive unemployment. Such economic chaos did much to increase social unrest, destabilizing the fragile Weimar Republic.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005425

The Weimar republic was Germany's first attempt at democracy. Prior to this, they were a monarchy chiefly governed by an aristocratic soldier class. The Weimar republic were beset at all sides by the population, chiefly by communists and monarchy sympathizers.

So say all the stupid crap you like about the Weimar republic, but the only alternative at the time was a return to monarchy or submission to communism. Which would you have chosen? Hitler came along and offered them a third way. We all know how that worked out.

You would know this if you didn't learn everything you know from the drudge report.

I don't even think I need to address your sheer stupidity on Obama, nor your shilling for the rich. Guess what? In case you haven't noticed, they don't need your support either. They've never done better. Lowest tax rates in decades and the highest consolidation of wealth since before the Great Depression.

They're doing just fine. And they are the only ones who are. Like I said to Smacky, today's economy is the ultimate conclusion of the republican's philosophical revision of America. It started with Reagan, and it's been heading in this direction for thirty years. It's a class war the rich waged through legislation and trade policies.

There's your class war. The rich have won. And tools like you and KKB (great company, eh? A political philosophy so "erudite" even a hillbilly gets it) keep carrying water for those who decided long ago that the best way to increase their profit margin was TO TAKE THE REST OF US OUT OF THE EQUATION.
Last edited by stinkfingers on Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tax the Rich!!!

Post by Mighty Mouse »

@JJ . . . Are you serious? Do you seriously believe that the basis for your stance for capitalism is justified by a line on a purely politically motivated document? Following the paragraph is a set of grievances against King George. Anywhere there do you see His Majesty's violation of the subject's rights to capitalistic pursuits?

Do you have an understanding of the basis for Jefferson's inclusion of those lines in the document?

First, John Locke who many argue influenced Jefferson in his drafting of the Declaration wrote:
"To properly understand political power and trace its origins, we must consider the state that all people are in naturally. That is a state of perfect freedom of acting and disposing of their own possessions and persons as they think fit within the bounds of the law of nature. People in this state do not have to ask permission to act or depend on the will of others to arrange matters on their behalf. The natural state is also one of equality in which all power and jurisdiction is reciprocal and no one has more than another. It is evident that all human beings – as creatures belonging to the same species and rank and born indiscriminately with all the same natural advantages and faculties – are equal amongst themselves. They have no relationship of subordination or subjection unless God (the lord and master of them all) had clearly set one person above another and conferred on him an undoubted right to dominion and sovereignty."


Would you agree that this is closer to my argument than yours in current context? Do you think the economically and politically disadvantaged have equal power and jurisdiction in American society today?

Or alternatively, some argue that Jefferson was influenced by Jean-Jacques Burlamaqui who has stated:
II. I grant, at first setting out, that the primitive and original society, which nature has established amongst mankind, is a state of equality and independence; it is likewise true, that the law of nature is that, to which all men are obliged to conform their actions; and in fine it is certain, that this law is in itself most perfect, and the best adapted for the preservation and happiness of mankind.

III. It must likewise be granted, that if mankind, during the time they lived in natural society, had exactly conformed to nature's laws, nothing would have been wanting to complete their happiness, nor would there have been any occasion to establish a supreme authority upon earth. They would have lived in a mutual intercourse of love and beneficence, in a simplicity without state or pomp, in an equality without jealousy, strangers to all superiority, but that of virtue, and to every other ambition, than that of being disinterested and generous.

IV. But mankind were not long directed by so perfect a rule; the vivacity of their passions soon weakened the force of nature's law, which ceased now to be a bridle sufficient for them, so that they could no longer be left to themselves thus weakened and blinded by their passions. Let us explain this a little more particularly.


V. Laws are incapable of contributing to the happiness of society, unless they be sufficiently known. The laws of nature cannot be known otherwise to man, than as he makes a right use of his reason; but as the greatest part of mankind, abandoned to themselves, listen rather to the prejudices of passion than to reason and truth, it thence follows, that, in the state of natural society, the laws of nature were known but very imperfectly, and consequently, that, in this condition of things, man could not lead a happy life.

VI. Besides, the state of nature wanted another thing, necessary for the happiness and tranquillity of society, I mean a common judge, acknowledged as such, whose business it is to decide the differences, that every day arise betwixt individuals.

VII. In this state, as every one would be supreme arbiter of his own actions, and would have a right of being judge himself both of the laws of nature and of the manner, in which he ought to apply them, this independence and excessive liberty could not but be productive of disorder and confusion, especially in cases, where there happened to be any clashing of interests or passions.

VIII. In fine, as in the state of nature no one had a power of enforcing the execution of the laws, nor an authority to punish the violation of them, this was a third inconveniency of the state of primitive society, by which the efficacy of natural laws was almost entirely destroyed. For, as men are framed, the laws derive their greatest force from the coercive power, which by exemplary punishments, intimidates the wicked, and balances the superior force of pleasure and passion.

IX. Such were the inconveniences, that attended the state of nature. By the excessive liberty and independence, which mankind enjoyed, they were hurried into perpetual troubles; for which reason they were under an absolute necessity of quitting this state of independence, and of seeking a remedy against the evils, of which it was productive; and this remedy they found in the establishment of civil society and a sovereign authority.

X. But this could not be obtained without effecting two things equally necessary; the first was to unite together by means of a more particular society; the second, to form this society under the dependance of a person, invested with an uncontrolable power, to the end, that he might maintain order and peace.
Again, I dare say that this is a stance closer to my argument than yours.

I have given your post more thought than it actually deserves because I was somewhat disgusted that a fellow American can have such a shallow and misguided view of American ideals. I thank you that you have confirmed my cynicism about pure democratic principles as it applies to America today.
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Re: Tax the Rich!!!

Post by stinkfingers »

MM: so nice to see a conservative of real substance. W F Buckley would be proud.

You'll have to forgive JJ: you see, no matter where he wants to wander, he packs his personal prejudice. He contorts facts to support it, bends history to fit it, and cloaks it under layers and layers of intellectual pretense to shield it. He started with a belief and then constructed the hypothesis and the facts to preserve it. He's a religious zealot fighting a futile contest with modernity. It's not helping him that he learned to speak like the rest of us. Sort of.

I said you have to forgive him. That's not true. You can also revile him. Works for me.
I have given your post more thought than it actually deserves because I was somewhat disgusted that a fellow American can have such a shallow and misguided view of American ideals. I thank you that you have confirmed my cynicism about pure democratic principles as it applies to America today
Yes, right on. I don't know if you need any more advice where JJ is concerned but let me add that your observation about giving him more time than he deserves is not only dead on now, but applies to all future run-ins. I can't tell you how much time I wasted taking him seriously. In the end, few of us share a frame of reference with people like JJ. After all, living in the 21st century, how much could we have in common with someone who yearns for the seventh century?

Quoting humanist philosophers at JJ is like pounding sand down a rat hole.

BTW: I can barely read these quotes...is it just me? the boxes are black, the text slightly blacker. Anyway to change this format?
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LGM
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Re: Tax the Rich!!!

Post by LGM »

BTW: I can barely read these quotes...is it just me? the boxes are black, the text slightly blacker. Anyway to change this format?
I hope Doc can find time to fix that background color. Anything would be better than that dark gray/black color.

My workaround is to click the "yellow" button before I paste in what I want to quote.

Makes the code look like this:

Code: Select all

[quote][yellow]BTW: I can barely read these quotes...is it just me? the boxes are black, the text slightly blacker. Anyway to change this format?[/yellow][/quote]
BTW, the rights we have are not in the Declaration of Independence. See the Bill of Rights. I'm thinking the 14th... among others.

No right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness... except via natural law arguments
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Re: Tax the Rich!!!

Post by Mighty Mouse »

Did all of you see that recent hall meeting with that millionaire guy asking for Obama to tax him more?
Mr. Edwards, a former journalist who wrote a book about his tenure at Google entitled “I’m Feeling Lucky,” has donated more than $230,000 to Democratic candidates or Democratic groups in the past three election cycles. He gave $30,400 each in 2010 to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee and to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. He gave the maximum allowable donations to the campaigns of Sen. Barbara Boxer of California, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand of New York and Martha Coakley, who was defeated by Sen. Scott Brown, Massachusetts Republican.

Mr. Edwards gave Mr. Obama only $250 in 2008, according to a search of campaign finance records.
Now imagine if every millionaire who felt the need to pay more, geared the campaign donations to the IRS and not the campaign funds.

One thing about politicians in Washington, once you start giving them more money, they will never give it back, even if the impetus for the increase dissipates. Let's remember that the crisis was created because the same ones in charge now of fixing/overseeing the economy were in bed with those who created it. So you trust them now to fix it by having them spend their way out of it?

If they raise our taxes and economy somehow regains strength, be it by the tax expenditure or business cycles, I will guarantee you that they will find new ways to spend the money. They won't ever think about lowering the rates, or concentrate on reducing spending. Ever.

This has got to stop. Even if it hurts now, let's stop sending Washington more money until they prove they can handle the money they get now. If your children were as irresponsible with money as these knuckleheads, you would have taken their allowance away, not give them more to excuse their irresponsibility.

P.S. If you feel like you are not being taxed enough, perhaps you should start by not taking those tax deductions for contributions. Good place to start.
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KKB
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Re: Tax the Rich!!!

Post by KKB »

Stink Stinks.

Flat tax please. Pay as you go.

Fair enough?
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Re: Tax the Rich!!!

Post by Baba »

There's a sticky on my desk top that says...hmmm let me read it....
"If KKB says it then you know it is impulsive, ill thought out and wrong"
Wow, now I know why that note is there!

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