The Future of TT from GG!

[Rogue]

I've read his posts and I'm still waiting for a reason to play it posted by somebody.

BC, I like this game. That's obvious because I'm still here. Why would I go to a version of it that's less enjoyable?

This simply doesn't make sense. Shouldn't there be some draw other than some day it will improve?

Is this IA version worth jumping onto right now and playing for an hour? Is it? If it is I'm there. If it isn't why would I or anyone else support it?

Seriously, where am I going wrong in this discussion? What am I missing? Are there any current benefits of this IA version over the current version we play? If there are let's go. If there aren't why go?

Are we talking future-tense here? Meaning come play it soon and it will be worthwhile?

Resources? That's awfully vague. Why aren't there resources now? It's only in the beta version correct?

I think these are legitimate questions. Joe? What are the current advantages of the IA version of TT over the one we already own. Right now, not in the future. There must be some sort of draw. What is or are they? Which version would you currently play?

[jedirieb]

I agree with The V's post completely. Smacky, I do hear what you're saying, and yes, it does make sense. What doesn't make sense is Joe's/GG's seeming reluctance to work with what we have already. They want the players from TT stand-alone, that much is obvious. We want updates, and so they play on that "want" to get us to do what they want. But what they don't seem to get is:
A. We don't want to lose what we have (ie. mods, scripts, leagues, etc.), which at this point we would be switching over to TT IA (which is what he wants).
B. Said mods, scripts, etc. would benefit their TT IA more so than their current resources-devoted-to-TT IA could produce.

Am I saying this because I want the two to be integrated? You can bet your a.ss I am. But I can also see it from Joe's/GG's stand-point of resources, and I see that FREE mods, FREE scripts, FREE DEDICATED SERVERS would help their TT IA MUCH MORE than what they are currently willing to give it. How much, in the way of resources, does it take to integrate all that? I'm no wiz at TGE, but I'm guessing it wouldn't take much.

Will I go play TT IA some? Yes. But it will only be a token effort. Add something to it, especially something with quality like the aforementioned, already made community "updates", which will cost them little, will get them more interest from this community here. And what will that add, you may ask (since it is beta, and hence it is free)? It adds veteran tankers to the game, some of which do a pretty darn good job of helping out the new guys. Not to mention more good players on their TT IA will keep more of their "unique players"; more tanks to shoot = more addiction.

Its a give-some, take-some situation. I'm willing to give some of my time, after hearing his side. Then it'll be his/their turn to give some, since they've heard our side (as stated by many different people) too. Let's see how it turns out...

[joemaruschak]

Seriously, where am I going wrong in this discussion? What am I missing?

Rogue,

I think what you are missing is a ton of context. For years, the community has been bugging us (me) for updates, to work on the game, to make improvements. It was hard to do so. We were a company that was small, and we had bills to pay (I have 2 kids). We had to sell games to make $$$. Supporting modding, dedicated servers, etc.. does not sell games.. ded servers help, but they cost money. Modding on the other hand really did not help our sales at all.. it actually hurt. You guys dig it, but it affected sales noticeably when the game started getting modded heavily.

So, what you guys WANT, or have told me you wanted.. was better mod tools and support for modding, dedicated servers, and on top of that, better admin and team, army management, stats, persistent profiles, user peer ratings, etc.. basically.. what people have been asking us for is actually what we are building. It sucks now because it is a big job, it is hard, and we need to test all the modules to make sure all this 'stuff' works together and we can maintain it.

so, why support instantaction? because the idea of the whole thing is to make a distribution channel that makes it's money by catering to the community that likes the game and not making a game that appeals to the lowest common demoninator.

what we are building is the platform that will allow us to support games in a manner that is sustainable.. the infrastructure to support a gaming community correctly is what we are building.

@all,

we are not hurting for $$$ (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ ... 759130.htm).. I hear what you guys are saying. YOu stood by this game, so I am giving the heads up. I am one of the people entrusted with making decisions for a company that employs a lot of people now. We need to make good business decisions. I have a soft spot for TT, but I am not going to make an obviously foolish decision to say that TT is something we should focus on more than Legions..

some player community will form on instant action. It can be this one, or it can be another one. to me, It does not matter to ME if you come over.. it is not going to hurt me financially, or hurt my feelings. For YOU, if you want to see continued dev on TT from the people who made the game, the solution is obvious, we are working on ia.com.. if you want to see changes, they will happen there first, and they will happen to the games that have the most play, have the most active community, and are generating the most heat.

so, what people are missing is that I am NOT trying to tell you to 'trust me' and we will make it better. I am saying, get involved in it if you want to make it better. It can be what you want, but saying.. it just sucks so I ain't going to play.. that is not going to get anything to change.. it is actually a recipe for a perpetuation of the status quo over here.. so if you are happy with that.. cool.

[joemaruschak]

GG/Joe want us to prove that we would provide a sustained paying community for IA TT by playing the beta, before they start making updates on what could be a cash sink that doesn't bring in any revenue.
We (in general) want GG to prove that they can make a playable game by fixing problems/updating, before we start using up time (and/or cash, later) on what could be a major bust.

This is not entirely accurate. I am not asking anyone to prove anything. We will generate revenue on games. It can be TT or it can be one of the other games we either made or are publishing. It can be TT or it can be another game. If you want it to be TT, you can attempt to make that get the 'heat'. Or, you don't have to. If we can't get heat on any games on ia.com, then we fail. You are not obligated to go there. And if we have not proved it to be of sufficient quality to get a player base, then oh well.. if we have the resources to work on it, we will do it, if something else is looking better, we will work on that.

you have nothing to prove to me, and I am not going to bend over backwards to prove it to y'all. It will get there, or it won't, and it will do so in it's own timeframe (or not), and telling me what it needs is not going to speed it up.. having a presence on the site actively involved in the ongoing development of the site and game.. that might help speed it up. If y'all are confortable with waiting and the potential that TT gets back burnered, cool. If not, you have a choice to come and help.

this is not a negotiation. We don't have much to lose here, and it seems to me that y'all potentially have something to gain. If it does not appear that way to you now, then ignore it and move on..

[joemaruschak]

its a business decision, it makes sense to just let TT fade away (i.e. postpone for later development).
I think you've may be posting here because you might be a little sad to see that happen.

this is accurate. I like TT, and I think it is cool that you guys have been playing it for so long. What we are building a site that is geared around supporting communities, and when I think of game communities, I think of planetthinktanks.. it would be a shame to build something that was meant to cater to groups like this one and nto have THIS group of people.. but..

If you want us over there (and despite BS to the contrary, I think you do, or else you wouldn't spend as much time posting here as you do)

whatever.. no more BS. I spent a couple hours over here the past few months after being gone for years trying to tell you guys what is up because I felt like I at least owed you guys an explanation. so, in order to prove it is not BS, see you guys later, I won't be checking or posting here anymore. Come to ia.com or stay here.. it actually really does not matter in the long run in terms of the success or failure of ia.com

@ReagentX, I will get back to your email soon (tomorrow I hope).

[GRRReat]

Duh
We are talking about a beta I did not realize this from the posts I thought it was a full release in beta quality.
Everything Joe is saying makes complete sense.
To put it in terms even I can understand.
This is a beta (a test to see if the game is going to work and if there is a interest in the game)
If there is no interest in the game why waste money and time on further developing it?
Simple as that.

As Joe says we are not big enough group to make or break them. I do think he has been posting here for our benefit.

Well I tried to sign up but it said that it would not work on my system.

[NUTS!]

Wow I do not know how many times that I had starting posting in this thread but was unable to finish due to life interruptions or words. As I have always stated that should you guys offer some type license I would love to get one. There are a few resources on GG that I think would be nice to implement and a few game types that I would like to work in. I am not a coder by any stretch of the imagination but I find I can get square pegs through round holes very well.

As for the business decisions that were made. Its always easy to point out in hindsight what went wrong. I still believe that should TT2 be made with latest version of TGE or use technology like Juggernut (thats my way of spelling it) you would get your money back. Curious, what are the sales comp on a second addition for an indie game? I really can't think of one off the top of my head. How did TT do on the XBOX? I thought it was a cool idea and a great way to show off Torque technology. Not the right demographics for TT though. They are a little younger and more aggressive than what we see here. I still think that the wii would be awesome fit. However, this games thrives on its online playing. Not to sure about the Wii's capability with that. As for giving resources to TT, marble blast, etc, rather than Legions. I think the case can be made. It's the reverse of TT on xbox. You have the demographics of a more serious gamer than here. I am willing to bet if a poll would be taken you would probably see a younger crowd that has better computers that are tweaked than here. They don't want to play a game through a browser. Browsers can be bloated and playing a game through the browser seems to be looked down upon, hey that's how you play runescape. Wonder why you see xbox's and PS3 as wicked as they are. How are other browser based business models doing? Personally what I think should be done is that the IA model should focus more upon the "lesser" games. Legions should also be sold on its own on DVD or download. It should be wrapped with TGE/Juggernut modding/editing tools. That should help increase/keep interest and show off GG technologies. The real win would be to be able to have both versions see and play together. Hell I would also incorporate a pay to play model. Host dedicated servers, east, mid and west and incorporate stats, leagues, map updates, skins etc.(think I may have pissed some people off with that one) If you could do that you could then do it for all the games and have a few sales channels. I think that the browser based games are a good idea but I don't think the market is there yet. You gotta show that its the same.

Crap, drink just ran out.

[Cannon-Dale J]

Yesterday was the first day it made kinda sense, now it doesn't again. Maybe I am such a simple thing, but if we had been asking for tweaks for years wouldn't one contact the community before developing a new version...

I am no Beta tester - 3 kids (beat ya Joe), so more money to earn...

Joe can do what he wants, he is the boss. If IA doesn't work, no loss. I have a boss, if I commit time to make a product & it sucks/ fails I am told off.... In todays economy development costs are the highest cost of most products.

@ Nuts - Some interesting stuff in there. When will you get more beer & do the concise version?

[Mighty Mouse]

^ You are assuming that we are the community he's after. As he's stated, he wants to support communities like ours, but not necessarily us.
He's developed a business model to ensure sustainable revenue stream. The focus seems to be on the delivery end, ie the web-browser platform and TGE development to support the more popular games in their arsenal. The individual games will get more support if the people show more interest.
TT is an afterthought, a remnant of their indie developing days. They have a soft spot for the game, but not at the expense of what they are working on in the business sense.
I don't know the actual numbers, but I'm thinking there are more on IA playing other games than there are standalone TT players here. Sure, it's nice to have a built in base, but would they feel the pain of losing TT veterans here? I doubt it. We stopped supporting joe's 2 kids the moment we paid the $20. I haven't paid anything additional since, have you?

[Cannon-Dale J]

^ No I haven't... I said months ago he porb wasn't interested in us.

A design brief for anything starts with open minds, our feedback could have been constructive, maybe not, whatever. Worth obtaining though. As I have said I don't know much about gaming, so much of what I say is only from my perspective & may not be relevant, but it may offer a different slant. This is an active thread with not many posters. I talk to a few poeple who don't dare post in game.

I have said, it's no skin off my nose either. It's just that some of the issues/ posts beggar belief, so I can't stop myself posting. I usually see product enhancements (key word there) take a product forwards. I don't see that here, which was what confused me. But Joe says it's the system they are developing. I read Nuts post, which makes sense, so am still confused.

I bought a new monitor to see TT in big screen mode. Does that count?

I think I like being a simple Engineer. Hammers & Spanners ROCK!!!